Hey people,
a few of us have been discussing every now and then the possibility of
ever needing a CoC.
Following an exchange of opinions with some of the long-time Alpine
developers today, I decided to come up with a CoC asap, for two reasons:
1. Abuses in the community would have an objective ground to be fought on.
2. Nobody could then come claiming we do not have a CoC and present us
with a much more harmful and complex alternative (as it has been the
case in many open source projects already)
Here goes my proposal (followed by explanations for each point), loosely
based on the proposals from the PostgreSQL mailing list:
Alpine (AKA Alpine-Linux and Alpine-OS) Code of Conduct (CoC)
=============================================================
1. This CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and
enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for
any person who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful,
productive and collaborative way.
2. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
of personal attacks and disparaging remarks of any kind, including, but
not limited to, racial, ethnic, gender-related, religious, political,
sexual-orientation related slur.
3. This CoC is not about being offended, nor giving weapons to so called
social justice warriors. One should always assume good intentions. As
with any diverse community, anyone would otherwise eventually get
offended at something.
4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists,
IRC etc.) or other Alpine events shall be construed as a violation of
this CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the Alpine community
moderators.
5. Any amendment made to this CoC should be approved by all Alpine
developers (i.e. all people who have commit rights on the repositories).
6. The CoC is only about interaction with the Alpine community. Your
private and public lives outside of the Alpine community are your own.
Any issue arising outside of the Alpine community and not directly
technically related with the Alpine maintained software shall neither be
discussed nor arbitrated within the community.
----
Explanations:
1. Alpine is about contribution first, community second. The community
only exists for the sole purpose of contributing together to Alpine. Not
the other way around.
2. Such an contribution-welcoming environment can only happen when
people leave their personal different at the door. Toxic behavior (like
personal attacks) have no place in our community. i.e.: "Your work
sucks" is fine while "you suck" isn't.
3. The FOSS community has recently seen a drastic increase of lobbying
for exclusion, and censoring attempts, against some contributors, from
certain groups. Offensive and toxic behavior within the community will
be dealt with according to point two. Offensive and toxic behavior
outside of it will be ignored according to point six.
4. As explained in point one, the main and foremost goal of our
community is to support contribution. Anything threatening or impeding
contribution is therefore directly harming the primary goal of our
mailing lists and IRC channels; and has to be prevented.
5. Again, as explained in point one, the goal of the community is
contribution. This CoC, discussing it, and all the work related to it
are wasted time in regards to the technical progress. This requirement
is meant as a discussion deterrent, as it will be pointless to discuss
any proposal to the CoC as soon as one developer disagrees.
6. We do not care if you torture kittens or beat up puppies outside of
our community. As long as you are keeping things separated, we will.
----
I hope I made it well enough that we do not have to spend too much time
discussing it.
Theo.
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Hi Theo,
First, thanks for doing this — I believe that adopting a CoC will help us
provide handles to those in the community who see or are subject to abusive
behaviour to address them in a safe and productive manner.
There’s two (not too fundamental) issues I see with your current proposal:
1) The wording of clause 3. While I understand what you’re trying to say,
the way it is being said seems far from neutral (and possibly wrong, as
I’m sure under a lot of circumstances I would be considered a “social
justice warrior”, as well many people that would want to contribute to
Alpine), needlessly scaring people off in this especially charged
political climate. I believe this section could be reworded in a far
more neutral manner while still preserving its intention, maybe like this:
“This document is to be used as stated in clause 1 for the health of the
community, not as a beating stick for other people. Please assume the
best intentions of people to a reasonable degree, and try to talk out
differences first — sometimes people simply misunderstand each other.”
I see William also proposed another variant on IRC that I may like even
better:
"Participants may disagree on the methods or opinions of others, but it
is important to maintain the assumption of good faith. Alpine is a diverse
project representing many viewpoints, and as such, disagreements are likely
to occur. It should be assumed that all participants are working for the
advancement of the project.”
Where I’d possibly append “ and community” to the last sentence.
2) Clause 4 currently lacks examples of appropriate actions that can be taken
by the community. I think it’s important to at least note the scope of these
actions, so people realise that it is serious and can lead to more than
simply a slap on the wrist. Maybe adding an additional clause with something
like the following text may help elaborate on that:
“Appropriate measures depend on the nature and severity of the case in
question and may range from, but are not limited to, official warnings to
temporary or permanent exclusion from community communication channels and
removal of developer status or other conferred privileges.”
And a few mostly random, smaller thoughts:
* Maybe clause 2 should be expanded a bit to not just include direct personal
attacks but also situations like harassment, stalking, and doxxing;
* I’d change the “and” in clause 6 to and or, as harassment behaviour within the
Alpine community may not directly pertain to Alpine-related software. In my
opinion it should relate to both the community and the software that arises
from it.
* Clause 5 nicely defines Alpine developers, but we have no such definition yet
for Alpine community moderators. Maybe adding a simple one would be helpful
for people to identify who to address complaints to?
Again, thanks for doing this, and I hope we can have an inclusive but concise
CoC at the end. :)
- Shiz
> On 12 May 2017, at 00:49, 7heo <7heo@mail.com> wrote:> > Hey people,> > a few of us have been discussing every now and then the possibility of ever needing a CoC.> > Following an exchange of opinions with some of the long-time Alpine developers today, I decided to come up with a CoC asap, for two reasons:> > 1. Abuses in the community would have an objective ground to be fought on.> 2. Nobody could then come claiming we do not have a CoC and present us with a much more harmful and complex alternative (as it has been the case in many open source projects already)> > Here goes my proposal (followed by explanations for each point), loosely based on the proposals from the PostgreSQL mailing list:> > Alpine (AKA Alpine-Linux and Alpine-OS) Code of Conduct (CoC)> =============================================================> > 1. This CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way.> > 2. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of personal attacks and disparaging remarks of any kind, including, but not limited to, racial, ethnic, gender-related, religious, political, sexual-orientation related slur.> > 3. This CoC is not about being offended, nor giving weapons to so called social justice warriors. One should always assume good intentions. As with any diverse community, anyone would otherwise eventually get offended at something.> > 4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, IRC etc.) or other Alpine events shall be construed as a violation of this CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the Alpine community moderators.> > 5. Any amendment made to this CoC should be approved by all Alpine developers (i.e. all people who have commit rights on the repositories).> > 6. The CoC is only about interaction with the Alpine community. Your private and public lives outside of the Alpine community are your own. Any issue arising outside of the Alpine community and not directly technically related with the Alpine maintained software shall neither be discussed nor arbitrated within the community.> > ----> > Explanations:> > 1. Alpine is about contribution first, community second. The community only exists for the sole purpose of contributing together to Alpine. Not the other way around.> > 2. Such an contribution-welcoming environment can only happen when people leave their personal different at the door. Toxic behavior (like personal attacks) have no place in our community. i.e.: "Your work sucks" is fine while "you suck" isn't.> > 3. The FOSS community has recently seen a drastic increase of lobbying for exclusion, and censoring attempts, against some contributors, from certain groups. Offensive and toxic behavior within the community will be dealt with according to point two. Offensive and toxic behavior outside of it will be ignored according to point six.> > 4. As explained in point one, the main and foremost goal of our community is to support contribution. Anything threatening or impeding contribution is therefore directly harming the primary goal of our mailing lists and IRC channels; and has to be prevented.> > 5. Again, as explained in point one, the goal of the community is contribution. This CoC, discussing it, and all the work related to it are wasted time in regards to the technical progress. This requirement is meant as a discussion deterrent, as it will be pointless to discuss any proposal to the CoC as soon as one developer disagrees.> > 6. We do not care if you torture kittens or beat up puppies outside of our community. As long as you are keeping things separated, we will.> > ----> > I hope I made it well enough that we do not have to spend too much time discussing it.> > Theo.> > > ---> Unsubscribe: alpine-devel+unsubscribe@lists.alpinelinux.org> Help: alpine-devel+help@lists.alpinelinux.org> --->
Thank you Shiz for taking the time to review and comment on my proposal.
Since you started with clause 3, I will step right in, and say: from the
feedback I got, it is utterly clear that it completely misses the point.
So I will entirely rephrase it (not using any of the suggestions because
they are more a confirmation of step 2 - do not offend others - than
what was actually meant by - do not get offended).
About step 4, you are right that it is important to explicitly state
that actions will be taken "with a response appropriately proportional
to the fault."; but examples are out-of-scope: they call for more
exhaustive specifications in the CoC, while this is what we want to
avoid (it will take more time and we, AFAICT, prefer to trust the
developers as a whole than to write a canonical document that will be
interpreted according to who shouts louder).
For point two, exactly for the same reason as for point four, we do not
want explicit listings (and let's not give potential ill-intended people
a complete todo list), but I will add 'doxing' as it apparently makes
consensus.
The 'and' in point 6 is very much intentional. It means that we will
only care about stuff happening outside of the community if it is technical.
Finally, point 5 does not define alpine moderators, because we have no
other definition for it than the developers. So I guess that will have
to be an amendment for later on.
----
So here is the new version:
Alpine (AKA Alpine-Linux and Alpine-OS) Code of Conduct (CoC)
=============================================================
1. This CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and
enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for
any person who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful,
productive and collaborative way. It is especially not meant as an
exhaustive law, to automate moderation, or to prevent thinking.
2. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
of personal attacks, doxing, and disparaging remarks of any kind,
including, but not limited to, racial, ethnic, gender-related,
religious, political, sexual-orientation related slur.
3. This document is not about censorship or exclusion. Censorship is an
extreme measure, and shall only happen as a consequence of applicable
state law. Exclusion should be decided unanimously by the developers (or
in case of exclusion of a developer, by the developers who are in the
project for longer than the person to be excluded).
4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists,
IRC etc.) or other Alpine events shall be construed as a violation of
this CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the Alpine community
moderators.
5. Any amendment made to this CoC should be approved unanimously by all
Alpine developers (i.e. all people who have commit rights on the
repositories).
6. The CoC is only about interaction with the Alpine community. Your
private and public lives outside of the Alpine community are your own.
Any issue arising outside of the Alpine community and not directly
technically related with the Alpine maintained software shall neither be
discussed nor arbitrated within the community.
On 5/12/2017 2:21 AM, Shiz wrote:
> Hi Theo,>> First, thanks for doing this — I believe that adopting a CoC will help us> provide handles to those in the community who see or are subject to abusive> behaviour to address them in a safe and productive manner.>> There’s two (not too fundamental) issues I see with your current proposal:>> 1) The wording of clause 3. While I understand what you’re trying to say,> the way it is being said seems far from neutral (and possibly wrong, as> I’m sure under a lot of circumstances I would be considered a “social> justice warrior”, as well many people that would want to contribute to> Alpine), needlessly scaring people off in this especially charged> political climate. I believe this section could be reworded in a far> more neutral manner while still preserving its intention, maybe like this:>> “This document is to be used as stated in clause 1 for the health of the> community, not as a beating stick for other people. Please assume the> best intentions of people to a reasonable degree, and try to talk out> differences first — sometimes people simply misunderstand each other.”>> I see William also proposed another variant on IRC that I may like even> better:>> "Participants may disagree on the methods or opinions of others, but it> is important to maintain the assumption of good faith. Alpine is a diverse> project representing many viewpoints, and as such, disagreements are likely> to occur. It should be assumed that all participants are working for the> advancement of the project.”>> Where I’d possibly append “ and community” to the last sentence.> 2) Clause 4 currently lacks examples of appropriate actions that can be taken> by the community. I think it’s important to at least note the scope of these> actions, so people realise that it is serious and can lead to more than> simply a slap on the wrist. Maybe adding an additional clause with something> like the following text may help elaborate on that:>> “Appropriate measures depend on the nature and severity of the case in> question and may range from, but are not limited to, official warnings to> temporary or permanent exclusion from community communication channels and> removal of developer status or other conferred privileges.”>> And a few mostly random, smaller thoughts:> * Maybe clause 2 should be expanded a bit to not just include direct personal> attacks but also situations like harassment, stalking, and doxxing;> * I’d change the “and” in clause 6 to and or, as harassment behaviour within the> Alpine community may not directly pertain to Alpine-related software. In my> opinion it should relate to both the community and the software that arises> from it.> * Clause 5 nicely defines Alpine developers, but we have no such definition yet> for Alpine community moderators. Maybe adding a simple one would be helpful> for people to identify who to address complaints to?>> Again, thanks for doing this, and I hope we can have an inclusive but concise> CoC at the end. :)>> - Shiz>>> On 12 May 2017, at 00:49, 7heo <7heo@mail.com> wrote:>>>> Hey people,>>>> a few of us have been discussing every now and then the possibility of ever needing a CoC.>>>> Following an exchange of opinions with some of the long-time Alpine developers today, I decided to come up with a CoC asap, for two reasons:>>>> 1. Abuses in the community would have an objective ground to be fought on.>> 2. Nobody could then come claiming we do not have a CoC and present us with a much more harmful and complex alternative (as it has been the case in many open source projects already)>>>> Here goes my proposal (followed by explanations for each point), loosely based on the proposals from the PostgreSQL mailing list:>>>> Alpine (AKA Alpine-Linux and Alpine-OS) Code of Conduct (CoC)>> =============================================================>>>> 1. This CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way.>>>> 2. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of personal attacks and disparaging remarks of any kind, including, but not limited to, racial, ethnic, gender-related, religious, political, sexual-orientation related slur.>>>> 3. This CoC is not about being offended, nor giving weapons to so called social justice warriors. One should always assume good intentions. As with any diverse community, anyone would otherwise eventually get offended at something.>>>> 4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, IRC etc.) or other Alpine events shall be construed as a violation of this CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the Alpine community moderators.>>>> 5. Any amendment made to this CoC should be approved by all Alpine developers (i.e. all people who have commit rights on the repositories).>>>> 6. The CoC is only about interaction with the Alpine community. Your private and public lives outside of the Alpine community are your own. Any issue arising outside of the Alpine community and not directly technically related with the Alpine maintained software shall neither be discussed nor arbitrated within the community.>>>> ---->>>> Explanations:>>>> 1. Alpine is about contribution first, community second. The community only exists for the sole purpose of contributing together to Alpine. Not the other way around.>>>> 2. Such an contribution-welcoming environment can only happen when people leave their personal different at the door. Toxic behavior (like personal attacks) have no place in our community. i.e.: "Your work sucks" is fine while "you suck" isn't.>>>> 3. The FOSS community has recently seen a drastic increase of lobbying for exclusion, and censoring attempts, against some contributors, from certain groups. Offensive and toxic behavior within the community will be dealt with according to point two. Offensive and toxic behavior outside of it will be ignored according to point six.>>>> 4. As explained in point one, the main and foremost goal of our community is to support contribution. Anything threatening or impeding contribution is therefore directly harming the primary goal of our mailing lists and IRC channels; and has to be prevented.>>>> 5. Again, as explained in point one, the goal of the community is contribution. This CoC, discussing it, and all the work related to it are wasted time in regards to the technical progress. This requirement is meant as a discussion deterrent, as it will be pointless to discuss any proposal to the CoC as soon as one developer disagrees.>>>> 6. We do not care if you torture kittens or beat up puppies outside of our community. As long as you are keeping things separated, we will.>>>> ---->>>> I hope I made it well enough that we do not have to spend too much time discussing it.>>>> Theo.>>>>>> --->> Unsubscribe: alpine-devel+unsubscribe@lists.alpinelinux.org>> Help: alpine-devel+help@lists.alpinelinux.org>> --->>>
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One small change on the new point 3, mostly to simplify it and not to
contradict the first sentence with the rest of the point:
Alpine (AKA Alpine-Linux and Alpine-OS) Code of Conduct (CoC)
=============================================================
1. This CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and
enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for
any person who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful,
productive and collaborative way. It is especially not meant as an
exhaustive law, to automate moderation, or to prevent thinking.
2. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
of personal attacks, doxing, and disparaging remarks of any kind,
including, but not limited to, racial, ethnic, gender-related,
religious, political, sexual-orientation related slur.
3. This CoC does not condone nor excuse censorship; or the exclusion of
those acting in good faith. Censorship should never happen unless
required by law.
4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists,
IRC etc.) or other Alpine events shall be construed as a violation of
this CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the Alpine community
moderators.
5. Any amendment made to this CoC should be approved unanimously by all
Alpine developers (i.e. all people who have commit rights on the
repositories).
6. The CoC is only about interaction with the Alpine community. Your
private and public lives outside of the Alpine community are your own.
Any issue arising outside of the Alpine community and not directly
technically related with the Alpine maintained software shall neither be
discussed nor arbitrated within the community.
On 5/12/2017 3:20 AM, 7heo wrote:
> Thank you Shiz for taking the time to review and comment on my proposal.>> Since you started with clause 3, I will step right in, and say: from the> feedback I got, it is utterly clear that it completely misses the point.> So I will entirely rephrase it (not using any of the suggestions because> they are more a confirmation of step 2 - do not offend others - than> what was actually meant by - do not get offended).>> About step 4, you are right that it is important to explicitly state> that actions will be taken "with a response appropriately proportional> to the fault."; but examples are out-of-scope: they call for more> exhaustive specifications in the CoC, while this is what we want to> avoid (it will take more time and we, AFAICT, prefer to trust the> developers as a whole than to write a canonical document that will be> interpreted according to who shouts louder).>> For point two, exactly for the same reason as for point four, we do not> want explicit listings (and let's not give potential ill-intended people> a complete todo list), but I will add 'doxing' as it apparently makes> consensus.>> The 'and' in point 6 is very much intentional. It means that we will> only care about stuff happening outside of the community if it is> technical.>> Finally, point 5 does not define alpine moderators, because we have no> other definition for it than the developers. So I guess that will have> to be an amendment for later on.>> ---->> So here is the new version:>> Alpine (AKA Alpine-Linux and Alpine-OS) Code of Conduct (CoC)> =============================================================>> 1. This CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and> enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for> any person who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful,> productive and collaborative way. It is especially not meant as an> exhaustive law, to automate moderation, or to prevent thinking.>> 2. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free> of personal attacks, doxing, and disparaging remarks of any kind,> including, but not limited to, racial, ethnic, gender-related,> religious, political, sexual-orientation related slur.>> 3. This document is not about censorship or exclusion. Censorship is an> extreme measure, and shall only happen as a consequence of applicable> state law. Exclusion should be decided unanimously by the developers (or> in case of exclusion of a developer, by the developers who are in the> project for longer than the person to be excluded).>> 4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists,> IRC etc.) or other Alpine events shall be construed as a violation of> this CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the Alpine community> moderators.>> 5. Any amendment made to this CoC should be approved unanimously by all> Alpine developers (i.e. all people who have commit rights on the> repositories).>> 6. The CoC is only about interaction with the Alpine community. Your> private and public lives outside of the Alpine community are your own.> Any issue arising outside of the Alpine community and not directly> technically related with the Alpine maintained software shall neither be> discussed nor arbitrated within the community.>> On 5/12/2017 2:21 AM, Shiz wrote:>> Hi Theo,>>>> First, thanks for doing this — I believe that adopting a CoC will help us>> provide handles to those in the community who see or are subject to>> abusive>> behaviour to address them in a safe and productive manner.>>>> There’s two (not too fundamental) issues I see with your current>> proposal:>>>> 1) The wording of clause 3. While I understand what you’re trying to say,>> the way it is being said seems far from neutral (and possibly>> wrong, as>> I’m sure under a lot of circumstances I would be considered a “social>> justice warrior”, as well many people that would want to contribute to>> Alpine), needlessly scaring people off in this especially charged>> political climate. I believe this section could be reworded in a far>> more neutral manner while still preserving its intention, maybe>> like this:>>>> “This document is to be used as stated in clause 1 for the health>> of the>> community, not as a beating stick for other people. Please assume the>> best intentions of people to a reasonable degree, and try to talk out>> differences first — sometimes people simply misunderstand each>> other.”>>>> I see William also proposed another variant on IRC that I may like>> even>> better:>>>> "Participants may disagree on the methods or opinions of others,>> but it>> is important to maintain the assumption of good faith. Alpine is>> a diverse>> project representing many viewpoints, and as such, disagreements>> are likely>> to occur. It should be assumed that all participants are working>> for the>> advancement of the project.”>>>> Where I’d possibly append “ and community” to the last sentence.>> 2) Clause 4 currently lacks examples of appropriate actions that can>> be taken>> by the community. I think it’s important to at least note the scope>> of these>> actions, so people realise that it is serious and can lead to more>> than>> simply a slap on the wrist. Maybe adding an additional clause with>> something>> like the following text may help elaborate on that:>>>> “Appropriate measures depend on the nature and severity of the case in>> question and may range from, but are not limited to, official>> warnings to>> temporary or permanent exclusion from community communication>> channels and>> removal of developer status or other conferred privileges.”>>>> And a few mostly random, smaller thoughts:>> * Maybe clause 2 should be expanded a bit to not just include direct>> personal>> attacks but also situations like harassment, stalking, and doxxing;>> * I’d change the “and” in clause 6 to and or, as harassment behaviour>> within the>> Alpine community may not directly pertain to Alpine-related>> software. In my>> opinion it should relate to both the community and the software that>> arises>> from it.>> * Clause 5 nicely defines Alpine developers, but we have no such>> definition yet>> for Alpine community moderators. Maybe adding a simple one would be>> helpful>> for people to identify who to address complaints to?>>>> Again, thanks for doing this, and I hope we can have an inclusive but>> concise>> CoC at the end. :)>>>> - Shiz>>>>> On 12 May 2017, at 00:49, 7heo <7heo@mail.com> wrote:>>>>>> Hey people,>>>>>> a few of us have been discussing every now and then the possibility>>> of ever needing a CoC.>>>>>> Following an exchange of opinions with some of the long-time Alpine>>> developers today, I decided to come up with a CoC asap, for two reasons:>>>>>> 1. Abuses in the community would have an objective ground to be>>> fought on.>>> 2. Nobody could then come claiming we do not have a CoC and present>>> us with a much more harmful and complex alternative (as it has been>>> the case in many open source projects already)>>>>>> Here goes my proposal (followed by explanations for each point),>>> loosely based on the proposals from the PostgreSQL mailing list:>>>>>> Alpine (AKA Alpine-Linux and Alpine-OS) Code of Conduct (CoC)>>> =============================================================>>>>>> 1. This CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and>>> enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for>>> any person who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful,>>> productive and collaborative way.>>>>>> 2. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is>>> free of personal attacks and disparaging remarks of any kind,>>> including, but not limited to, racial, ethnic, gender-related,>>> religious, political, sexual-orientation related slur.>>>>>> 3. This CoC is not about being offended, nor giving weapons to so>>> called social justice warriors. One should always assume good>>> intentions. As with any diverse community, anyone would otherwise>>> eventually get offended at something.>>>>>> 4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing>>> lists, IRC etc.) or other Alpine events shall be construed as a>>> violation of this CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the>>> Alpine community moderators.>>>>>> 5. Any amendment made to this CoC should be approved by all Alpine>>> developers (i.e. all people who have commit rights on the repositories).>>>>>> 6. The CoC is only about interaction with the Alpine community. Your>>> private and public lives outside of the Alpine community are your>>> own. Any issue arising outside of the Alpine community and not>>> directly technically related with the Alpine maintained software>>> shall neither be discussed nor arbitrated within the community.>>>>>> ---->>>>>> Explanations:>>>>>> 1. Alpine is about contribution first, community second. The>>> community only exists for the sole purpose of contributing together>>> to Alpine. Not the other way around.>>>>>> 2. Such an contribution-welcoming environment can only happen when>>> people leave their personal different at the door. Toxic behavior>>> (like personal attacks) have no place in our community. i.e.: "Your>>> work sucks" is fine while "you suck" isn't.>>>>>> 3. The FOSS community has recently seen a drastic increase of>>> lobbying for exclusion, and censoring attempts, against some>>> contributors, from certain groups. Offensive and toxic behavior>>> within the community will be dealt with according to point two.>>> Offensive and toxic behavior outside of it will be ignored according>>> to point six.>>>>>> 4. As explained in point one, the main and foremost goal of our>>> community is to support contribution. Anything threatening or>>> impeding contribution is therefore directly harming the primary goal>>> of our mailing lists and IRC channels; and has to be prevented.>>>>>> 5. Again, as explained in point one, the goal of the community is>>> contribution. This CoC, discussing it, and all the work related to it>>> are wasted time in regards to the technical progress. This>>> requirement is meant as a discussion deterrent, as it will be>>> pointless to discuss any proposal to the CoC as soon as one developer>>> disagrees.>>>>>> 6. We do not care if you torture kittens or beat up puppies outside>>> of our community. As long as you are keeping things separated, we will.>>>>>> ---->>>>>> I hope I made it well enough that we do not have to spend too much>>> time discussing it.>>>>>> Theo.>>>>>>>>> --->>> Unsubscribe: alpine-devel+unsubscribe@lists.alpinelinux.org>>> Help: alpine-devel+help@lists.alpinelinux.org>>> --->>>>>>>> ---> Unsubscribe: alpine-devel+unsubscribe@lists.alpinelinux.org> Help: alpine-devel+help@lists.alpinelinux.org> --->
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Thank you, Theo, for undertaking this.
I have a small meta point to make: to the best of my knowledge, the
Alpine
community, although much friendlier than the majority of tech
communities
out there, is not exactly diverse. We are overwhelmingly white men -
nothing wrong with that, but we have not experienced harassment as other
people have, and I'd be reluctant to endorse a CoC without at least
having
it reviewed by people who are more likely to be on the receiving end of
online abuse, by people who can bring experience or at least another
perspective on this.
So, can we please bring women, trans people, non-white people, disabled
people, in the conversation? or at least, if we know such people in
tech,
can we simply run the CoC drafts by them and see if they notice
something
that we wouldn't ?
Thanks,
--
Laurent
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On 05/12/2017 11:58 AM, Ed Robinson wrote:
> I would probably just drop point number 3 in the hope that we in the> community can be trusted to have some common sense over the issue.
Regarding number 3, I particularly would like to see, at least, something as
expressed at "One should always assume good intentions".
I like to keep this mainly from a language and background stand point. Not
native English speakers, who usually have a different cultural background,
might use some wrong expression situation that can possible cause some
weirdness at first impression.
I personally suffered from it on my early years, when I said something with a
different/weird meaning, which caused an unnecessary confusion. Assuming good
will on interactions helps the community.
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I am broadly in agreement with this. I especially like that it basically
assumes that we can all be trusted to do the right thing, and that some
broad guidelines of don't personally attack people or be super
unprofessional are clearly enough.
I would probably just drop point number 3 in the hope that we in the
community can be trusted to have some common sense over the issue. While I
agree with the sentiment, it is likely to attract the wrong sort of
attention from people who would find such words incendiary. If you want
to keep it, I would suggest dropping the phrase "nor giving weapons to so
called social justice warriors", I can think of more than one person who
would take that the wrong way...
Anyway, thanks for doing this.
Ed
On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 11:49 PM, 7heo <7heo@mail.com> wrote:
> Hey people,>> a few of us have been discussing every now and then the possibility of> ever needing a CoC.>> Following an exchange of opinions with some of the long-time Alpine> developers today, I decided to come up with a CoC asap, for two reasons:>> 1. Abuses in the community would have an objective ground to be fought on.> 2. Nobody could then come claiming we do not have a CoC and present us> with a much more harmful and complex alternative (as it has been the case> in many open source projects already)>> Here goes my proposal (followed by explanations for each point), loosely> based on the proposals from the PostgreSQL mailing list:>> Alpine (AKA Alpine-Linux and Alpine-OS) Code of Conduct (CoC)> =============================================================>> 1. This CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing> a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who> is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and> collaborative way.>> 2. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free of> personal attacks and disparaging remarks of any kind, including, but not> limited to, racial, ethnic, gender-related, religious, political,> sexual-orientation related slur.>> 3. This CoC is not about being offended, nor giving weapons to so called> social justice warriors. One should always assume good intentions. As with> any diverse community, anyone would otherwise eventually get offended at> something.>> 4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, IRC> etc.) or other Alpine events shall be construed as a violation of this CoC> and appropriate action will be taken by the Alpine community moderators.>> 5. Any amendment made to this CoC should be approved by all Alpine> developers (i.e. all people who have commit rights on the repositories).>> 6. The CoC is only about interaction with the Alpine community. Your> private and public lives outside of the Alpine community are your own. Any> issue arising outside of the Alpine community and not directly technically> related with the Alpine maintained software shall neither be discussed nor> arbitrated within the community.>> ---->> Explanations:>> 1. Alpine is about contribution first, community second. The community> only exists for the sole purpose of contributing together to Alpine. Not> the other way around.>> 2. Such an contribution-welcoming environment can only happen when people> leave their personal different at the door. Toxic behavior (like personal> attacks) have no place in our community. i.e.: "Your work sucks" is fine> while "you suck" isn't.>> 3. The FOSS community has recently seen a drastic increase of lobbying for> exclusion, and censoring attempts, against some contributors, from certain> groups. Offensive and toxic behavior within the community will be dealt> with according to point two. Offensive and toxic behavior outside of it> will be ignored according to point six.>> 4. As explained in point one, the main and foremost goal of our community> is to support contribution. Anything threatening or impeding contribution> is therefore directly harming the primary goal of our mailing lists and IRC> channels; and has to be prevented.>> 5. Again, as explained in point one, the goal of the community is> contribution. This CoC, discussing it, and all the work related to it are> wasted time in regards to the technical progress. This requirement is meant> as a discussion deterrent, as it will be pointless to discuss any proposal> to the CoC as soon as one developer disagrees.>> 6. We do not care if you torture kittens or beat up puppies outside of our> community. As long as you are keeping things separated, we will.>> ---->> I hope I made it well enough that we do not have to spend too much time> discussing it.>> Theo.>>> ---> Unsubscribe: alpine-devel+unsubscribe@lists.alpinelinux.org> Help: alpine-devel+help@lists.alpinelinux.org> --->>
I agree with you,
I will issue a new revision to re-introduce that part.
Thanks,
Theo.
On 5/12/2017 8:01 PM, Breno Leitao wrote:
> On 05/12/2017 11:58 AM, Ed Robinson wrote:>> I would probably just drop point number 3 in the hope that we in the>> community can be trusted to have some common sense over the issue.>> Regarding number 3, I particularly would like to see, at least, something as> expressed at "One should always assume good intentions".>> I like to keep this mainly from a language and background stand point. Not> native English speakers, who usually have a different cultural background,> might use some wrong expression situation that can possible cause some> weirdness at first impression.>> I personally suffered from it on my early years, when I said something with a> different/weird meaning, which caused an unnecessary confusion. Assuming good> will on interactions helps the community.>>>> ---> Unsubscribe: alpine-devel+unsubscribe@lists.alpinelinux.org> Help: alpine-devel+help@lists.alpinelinux.org> --->
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Hey Ed,
Please look at the new version - you've not been the only one requesting
a change of point 3.
The thread is under a new subject: "Code of Conduct"
Cheers,
Theo.
On 5/12/2017 4:58 PM, Ed Robinson wrote:
> I am broadly in agreement with this. I especially like that it basically> assumes that we can all be trusted to do the right thing, and that some> broad guidelines of don't personally attack people or be super> unprofessional are clearly enough.>> I would probably just drop point number 3 in the hope that we in the> community can be trusted to have some common sense over the issue.> While I agree with the sentiment, it is likely to attract the wrong sort> of attention from people who would find such words incendiary. If you> want to keep it, I would suggest dropping the phrase "nor giving weapons> to so called social justice warriors", I can think of more than one> person who would take that the wrong way...>> Anyway, thanks for doing this.>> Ed>> On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 11:49 PM, 7heo <7heo@mail.com> <7heo@mail.com>> wrote:>> Hey people,>> a few of us have been discussing every now and then the possibility> of ever needing a CoC.>> Following an exchange of opinions with some of the long-time Alpine> developers today, I decided to come up with a CoC asap, for two reasons:>> 1. Abuses in the community would have an objective ground to be> fought on.> 2. Nobody could then come claiming we do not have a CoC and present> us with a much more harmful and complex alternative (as it has been> the case in many open source projects already)>> Here goes my proposal (followed by explanations for each point),> loosely based on the proposals from the PostgreSQL mailing list:>> Alpine (AKA Alpine-Linux and Alpine-OS) Code of Conduct (CoC)> =============================================================>> 1. This CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and> enforcing a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place> for any person who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful,> productive and collaborative way.>> 2. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is> free of personal attacks and disparaging remarks of any kind,> including, but not limited to, racial, ethnic, gender-related,> religious, political, sexual-orientation related slur.>> 3. This CoC is not about being offended, nor giving weapons to so> called social justice warriors. One should always assume good> intentions. As with any diverse community, anyone would otherwise> eventually get offended at something.>> 4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing> lists, IRC etc.) or other Alpine events shall be construed as a> violation of this CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the> Alpine community moderators.>> 5. Any amendment made to this CoC should be approved by all Alpine> developers (i.e. all people who have commit rights on the repositories).>> 6. The CoC is only about interaction with the Alpine community. Your> private and public lives outside of the Alpine community are your> own. Any issue arising outside of the Alpine community and not> directly technically related with the Alpine maintained software> shall neither be discussed nor arbitrated within the community.>> ---->> Explanations:>> 1. Alpine is about contribution first, community second. The> community only exists for the sole purpose of contributing together> to Alpine. Not the other way around.>> 2. Such an contribution-welcoming environment can only happen when> people leave their personal different at the door. Toxic behavior> (like personal attacks) have no place in our community. i.e.: "Your> work sucks" is fine while "you suck" isn't.>> 3. The FOSS community has recently seen a drastic increase of> lobbying for exclusion, and censoring attempts, against some> contributors, from certain groups. Offensive and toxic behavior> within the community will be dealt with according to point two.> Offensive and toxic behavior outside of it will be ignored according> to point six.>> 4. As explained in point one, the main and foremost goal of our> community is to support contribution. Anything threatening or> impeding contribution is therefore directly harming the primary goal> of our mailing lists and IRC channels; and has to be prevented.>> 5. Again, as explained in point one, the goal of the community is> contribution. This CoC, discussing it, and all the work related to> it are wasted time in regards to the technical progress. This> requirement is meant as a discussion deterrent, as it will be> pointless to discuss any proposal to the CoC as soon as one> developer disagrees.>> 6. We do not care if you torture kittens or beat up puppies outside> of our community. As long as you are keeping things separated, we will.>> ---->> I hope I made it well enough that we do not have to spend too much> time discussing it.>> Theo.>>> ---> Unsubscribe: alpine-devel+unsubscribe@lists.alpinelinux.org> <alpine-devel%2Bunsubscribe@lists.alpinelinux.org>> Help: alpine-devel+help@lists.alpinelinux.org> <alpine-devel%2Bhelp@lists.alpinelinux.org>> --->>
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