Subject: [alpine-devel] New logo and website design?

From: Natanael Copa <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 11:24:21 +0200

Hi,

We are getting closer the 3.0 release and I think it might be a good
time to rethink the logo and website design.

The current logo was made by k0gen in 2010[1] while freshing up the
main website, which at that time was wiki.alpinelinux.org. It was a big
improvement from what was before that and I think it has done a great
job over the years. But I think we can and should do even better. Now,
with 3.0 release it is a good time to do so.

It would also be nice to have a consistent look over alpinelinux.org,
wiki.alpinelinux.org, bugs.alpinelinux.org and lists.alpinelinux.org -
and before start doing that, we should figure out what we really want.

I have mentioned that I'm interested in a new logo to a young designer
I met, Tobias, and he sent me some mockups. I think those were pretty
impressive.

I have uploaded them to http://bugs.alpinelinux.org/issues/2882

We probably should simplify it a bit more and we should have a 1 or 2
color logo variant. Maybe even something that works as black and white.
But I really liked the concepts from Tobias.

If you have better ideas or strong opinions to keep our current, then
please speak up. (it is normally not a good idea to change logo too
often)

Thanks!

-nc

[1] http://wiki.alpinelinux.org/w/index.php?title=User:K0gen

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From: Alan Messias <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 07:52:45 -0300

Hi,

Man... simply perfect! I best like the blue logo. Congrats to Tobias.

And the idea to have a consistent look over all the AL subdomains, it is a
great idea too.
But, How will it be possible to have the same look on Redmine (bugs),
MediaWiki (wiki) and Hypermail (list)?

What about that idea to use AsciiDoc? Maybe this is the chance to give it a
start.

:wq!
alacerda

> Help:         [email-masked]
*The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.
And if you really don't like all the standards you just have to wait
another year until the one arises you are looking for. -- A. Tanenbaum,
"Introduction to Computer Networks"*

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From: Natanael Copa <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 13:18:39 +0200

On Fri, 9 May 2014 07:52:45 -0300

> MediaWiki (wiki) and Hypermail (list)?

We will have to create a redmine theme, a mediawiki theme, a drupal
theme and a custom theme (css) for lists.a.o.

> What about that idea to use AsciiDoc? Maybe this is the chance to give it a

Funny you mention that. I have actually been thinking of generating
static pages from either markdown or asciidoc. I have been looking at
nikola[1]. If we do so, then we will need to also find a replacement
for forums and package browser, which currently is in drupal too.

Its not that I'm directly unhappy with drupal, which gets the job done
and does it pretty good. I just think the content we display is mostly
static so if we can get away with static pages, we would remove complexity.

I also like the idea of tracking the pages and news in git. I would be
happy if i could create new releases by writing something in
asciidoc/markdown (that could be sent unmodified to mailing list) and
just do git push to get it pusblished.

I love how suckless did their wiki[2].

That said, Carlo is doing the actual work here with drupal and those
who does the job are normally the ones that has the final say.

> alacerda

[1] http://getnikola.com/
[2] http://suckless.org/wiki

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From: Der Tiger <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 15:10:46 +0200

Hi Natanael,

Brilliant work by Tobias!

One tiny suggestion, if I may: The "Linux" part of the logo should be
made darker, to ensure it stays readable if any electronic document
containing the logo is printed in black and white on paper.

Does the hexagon shape stand for a certain aspect of Alpine Linux or is
it just some backdrop? My first association was a stop sign as
representation of the firewall in Alpine Linux, but that, of course,
would have been an octagon. It is difficult to represent "small" and
"simple" from the Alpine motto "small simple secure", but maybe the
"secure" aspect should be more prevalent in the shape of the logo.
"Security" is a good seller, nowadays. ;-)

Regarding the graphics in the alpine-logo-ideas* files, I see the term
"alps" best represented by the main logo as used in the mock-up. Most
mountains in alpine regions (e.g. New Zealand, Japan, South Korea and
Europe) are highly weathered and as a result do have slopes of about 45
degrees (therefore a 1:1 grade). Only a few, very tall mountains like
the Himalayas or Mount Cook in New Zealand have much steeper inclines. I
would find a baseline closing the triangular shape of each of the two
mountains quite irritating, since the term "foot of the mountain" is a
concept, that does not exist in reality.

The different colour schemes of the logo could be used to differentiate
between the main web page, the wiki, the bug tracker page et cetera.

Keep Up the Good Work, Tiger

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From: Alan Messias <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 10:39:56 -0300

Hi all,

> between the main web page, the wiki, the bug tracker page et cetera.
I loved this idea.

:wq!
alacerda

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From: Natanael Copa <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 11 May 2014 12:23:51 +0200

On Fri, 9 May 2014 10:39:56 -0300

> > between the main web page, the wiki, the bug tracker page et cetera.

Me too.

-nc

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From: Carlo Landmeter <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 16:54:24 +0200

If I look at the new logo's, I like the idea, but don't see much
overlapping with out project. While we are secure, and the stop sign idea
posted earlier has some relation, i don't see the "simple" in its design.

I like the font type, and if it could be made a little more simplified, i
think i would like it.

Also the mountains/alps in our logo (and our header image) how do they
relate to our project? Maybe we should have a logo that is based on our 3S
philosophy (small simple secure)?

Maybe I'm the only one, but i still like our current logo a lot, even if it
has been designed in a rush.

Regarding the new web design and implementation, whatever will be chosen is
fine by me. If I know how to support it I will try my best to do so, but if
other people want to step up and start something new from the ground up,
 that's also fine by me.

PS ive seen projects that change colors when browsing to other parts of the
site, and i didn't like it.

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From: Natanael Copa <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 15:33:30 +0200

On Mon, 12 May 2014 16:54:24 +0200

> posted earlier has some relation, i don't see the "simple" in its design.

As previously said a stop sign is octagon so its unrelated.

I was thinking "bolt", but other than that, its just a shape.
 
> I like the font type, and if it could be made a little more simplified, i

Yes, I'd like it simplified too. (its hand made btw...)

> philosophy (small simple secure)?

Alpine -> alps -> moutains -> rock stable.
 
> has been designed in a rush.

I think its ok. But I like the new one better.
 
> other people want to step up and start something new from the ground up,

I think we maybe should do it in multiple steps. Logo and maybe colors
first (similar to the site design mockup) and then later change the
page layout.
 
> site, and i didn't like it.

Ok. Maybe we save work to keep a single color too.

Thanks for your feedback! (your opinion does count)

-nc

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From: Nathan Angelacos <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 12:55:37 -0400

On 05/12/2014 10:54 AM, Carlo Landmeter wrote:
> overlapping with out project. While we are secure, and the stop sign
> idea posted earlier has some relation, i don't see the "simple" in its
> design.
>
> I like the font type, and if it could be made a little more simplified,
> i think i would like it.
>
> relate to our project? Maybe we should have a logo that is based on our
> 3S philosophy (small simple secure)?

Ncopa: Could your designer play with a design built around the '3 S'es' ?

The challenge is to stay out of a pure pyramid design. (we don't need 
tin-foil hat types judging our logo ;) )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB7Ab5IXriw

>
> Maybe I'm the only one, but i still like our current logo a lot, even if
> it has been designed in a rush.

+1.

Every time I see the logo, it reminds me of a drawing on a whiteboard.

Doesn't get smaller or simpler than a scribble on a whiteboard.

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From: Natanael Copa <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 15:37:11 +0200

On Mon, 12 May 2014 12:55:37 -0400

> Ncopa: Could your designer play with a design built around the '3 S'es' ?

I could, but the name is "Alpine Linux" with 'A' and 'L' and not "Small
Simple Secure Linux", so I'd rater see an "A" and possibly "L" in the
log than 3 S'es.

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB7Ab5IXriw

Agree. no triangles.
 
> Doesn't get smaller or simpler than a scribble on a whiteboard.

Counter argument would be a scribble is not well designed.

-nc

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From: Der Tiger <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 23:00:19 +0200

Nathan,

> Doesn't get smaller or simpler than a scribble on a whiteboard.
A logo should be immediately and distinctly recognizable.

As a simple test, try to draw the current logo as exactly as possible
just from memory. How many "mountain peaks" are there and how steep do
they connect? Then try the same with the new logo. Even though you
certainly have not seen it as often as the current logo, you may be able
to re-create the new logo more accurately. Everything else is just a
personal and indisputable preference.

Stay Tuned, Tiger

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From: Natanael Copa <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 15:39:04 +0200

On Mon, 12 May 2014 23:00:19 +0200

> personal and indisputable preference.

I tend to agree on this.

If you can easily redraw it from memory, then its easy memorable, which
is better than just easy to identify.

-nc

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From: Carlo Landmeter <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 23:57:00 +0200

> A logo should be immediately and distinctly recognizable.

Right, whatever you choose, use it wisely (CI).

> personal and indisputable preference.

I dont see any reason why i should be able to recreate any logo. A logo
should of course be easily recognisable like you mention before.
There are many logos which i am unable to reproduce, but it would recognise
them instantly. For instance that American soft-drink company with the red
logo. Its much more complicated than our current logo, but I'm sure lots of
people will recognise it.

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From: Natanael Copa <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 15:43:17 +0200

On Mon, 12 May 2014 23:57:00 +0200

> should of course be easily recognisable like you mention before.

If you can easily recreate it, then the logo is "simple". I consider
easy to memorize better than just easy to recognize. A logo that sticks
to your brain is a good logo.

-nc

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From: qnx4ever <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 17:53:05 +0400

Wow ! Looks like a hollywar. So much passion over circle vs rectangle :).
When ARM version is going to be available, so I can put it on my asus tf701
?

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From: Natanael Copa <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 16:27:32 +0200

On Tue, 13 May 2014 17:53:05 +0400

> Wow ! Looks like a hollywar. So much passion over circle vs rectangle :).

its called bikeshedding[1] and was a kind of expected.

> When ARM version is going to be available, so I can put it on my asus tf701

ARM should already be working. We just need some convenient way to
package it. ISO format does not make much sense for ARM.

-nc

[1]: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bikeshedding

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From: Der Tiger <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 18:21:38 +0200

Hi,

> Wow ! Looks like a hollywar. So much passion over circle vs rectangle
> :)
There is nothing like starting a global thermonuclear war over nothing
while having a splendid cup of tea. ;-)

Obviously, I'm not very convincing as troll, because I barely archived
level "Bikeshedding" (ROFL!) according to the jury. :-)

Always Zen-like Calm, Tiger

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From: Der Tiger <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 22:42:23 +0200

Carlo,

> relate to our project?
Well, could this be because the project is called _Alpine_ Linux !? ;-)

As can be learned from the last paragraph at {1}, the name Alpine was
derived from "A Linux Powered Integrated Network Engine". There is
certainly some sort of relation between the product and alps, since
mountains are associated with being as durable a barrier as a firewall
should be. While keeping valleys apart, mountains offer connecting
infrastructure in the form of paths and passes, just like Alpine Linux
does by separating and deliberately connecting WAN and LAN.

Apart from that: Every child needs a name.

> it has been designed in a rush.
I personally favour the new concept.

> PS ive seen projects that change colors when browsing to other parts of
> the site, and i didn't like it.
Certainly, this is a matter of how it is implemented. It is quite common
for commercial products to use colours to group the different types of a
product, e.g. the standard and the pro edition of any software. This
helps the customer to easily remember and recognize the type of product
he/she is used to buy, while the basic designs of all products of the
brand stay the same. For instance, the O'Reilly Media {2} publishing
company uses differently coloured banners for each scientific field they
publish books in, while the overall look of their books is (mostly)
identical.

In the case of Alpine Linux it would require quite some effort to
implement the use of different colour schemes in that way, because all
products are offered on the same web page and each reference to any
product type would have to be modified to the appropriate colour scheme.
On the other hand, the project home page, the wiki and the bug tracker
are separate software, that could independently be set-up with different
colour schemes as long as the overall look stays the same and visitors
perceive the different sections as being part of one whole website.

Just My 2c, Tiger

{1} http://alpinelinux.org/about
{2} http://www.oreilly.com/

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From: Carlo Landmeter <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 23:45:34 +0200

> Well, could this be because the project is called _Alpine_ Linux !? ;-)

Thats exactly the "issue" i was talking about. Our project name is Alpine
Linux. If you lookup alpine in wikipedia, it says: "The term alpine refers
to the Alps, a European mountain range.". Our project has nothing to do
with alps, except the (imho) vague arguments you make before. Thus drawing
an alp on your logo would make people on the street (random people) think
we sell some sort of mountain climbing gear.

> does by separating and deliberately connecting WAN and LAN.

Alpine is not *only* a firewall, it has been used for many other situations
as stated before by Nathanael.
As stated before, I think your arguments regarding alps vs alpine are
vague, I wouldnt want to have snow on top of my server or have water
running thru it (if you look at it in that perspective).

> Apart from that: Every child needs a name.

Absolutley, I dont think anybody want to change the name ( I love it).

> perceive the different sections as being part of one whole website.

I have nothing against *limited* colors schemes that change, but please
dont change logo colors, its a no go in CI.

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From: Der Tiger <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 12:18:53 +0200

Carlo,

> Thats exactly the "issue" i was talking about. Our project name is
> Alpine Linux.
[...]
> Absolutley, I dont think anybody want to change the name ( I love it).
I'm sorry, but I don't get your point.

On one hand you argue the Alpine part of the project name could mislead
people into not recognizing a Linux based OS, on the other hand you
stated you don't want the project name to change.

The name has historic origins, but IMHO still fits, even though the
project is not about giving away mountains for free. Rather it is about
saving people from a mountain of workload, which is another of those
"vague" arguments. ;-)

> Alpine is not *only* a firewall, it has been used for many other
> situations as stated before by Nathanael.
I never intended to imply being a firewall was the only feature of
Alpine Linux. We are all aware of the many packages available. The
mountain and firewall picture only showed for a randomly selected
feature, that there are aspects of Alpine Linux represented in the name
of the project, if one was willing to see them.

> vague, [..]
It seems what you're looking for is some kind of direct advertisement in
the form of "this is what you get" for the logo. How would you symbolize
the main characteristics of Alpine Linux without reverting to a physical
object like a server or optical disc, that once again could be
misunderstood for being the product manufactured?

Christianity doesn't sell crosses, Judaism doesn't sell David stars and
Islam doesn't sell moons, even though from a design standpoint these are
among the best logos there are. (Please, don't be offended by these
examples, if your are agnostic or atheist or your personal belief is not
represented in this not in an way complete list)

> I dont see any reason why i should be able to recreate any logo.
This is one of the tests commonly used to qualify the recognizability of
a logo and to determine, how "deep" the logo penetrates your mind.

> There are many logos which i am unable to reproduce, but it would
> recognise them instantly. For instance that American soft-drink company
> with the red logo. Its much more complicated than our current logo, but
> I'm sure lots of people will recognise it.
Because the logo you mentioned contains the brand's name in writing, it
is difficult to say how much of the recognizability comes from
understanding the writing. Try recognizing the same brand with the name
phonicly written in Korean or Arabic. The only thing left are the colour
red and the bubbles, which are not enough to recognize the brand free of
doubt within a moment. So not a really great logo.

Quite contrary, take the shape of the bottle this soft-drink company
used up to the sixties or seventies, which is very well recognized
around the world independently of the colour it is reproduced in. Andy
Warhol, for instance, used the bottle differently coloured in several of
his works even without the brand's logo and the brand is recognized
immediately.

> dont change logo colors, its a no go in CI.
The recognizability of any logo worth mentioning is not limited to a
single colour set. It is a fundamental rule in corporate identity (CI)
to design the logo save for monochrome reproduction, e.g. b/w xeroxing.

The corporate colour scheme is never intended to limit the colours of
any depiction of the logo, but to implement a general "look and feel" of
the brand. To state a logo is only to be reproduced within the bounds of
the corporate colour scheme would be an upturn of this basic CI rule.
This even holds true for brands that are strongly associated with a
certain colour like "Big Blue" and the red of the soft-drink company you
mentioned, which I've seen in different colours as well (e.g. the black
coloured "Zero" product line).

Good Night and Good Luck, Tiger

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From: Natanael Copa <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 15:58:06 +0200

On Mon, 12 May 2014 23:45:34 +0200

> we sell some sort of mountain climbing gear.

This is a good point. We don't want be taken for something that sells
climbing equipment or car audio equipment.

https://www.google.no/search?q=alpine+logo&tbm=isch

I was kinda hoping that the hexagon should make us different from
those. The text "Linux" should also make it clean what it is about.

But I don't mind that there are alps in the logo, as it is a "play"
with the name.

I think what we should compare our logo with is:

https://www.google.no/search?q=linux+distro+logo&tbm=isch

There are many circles there, so I think we do the right with a hexagon.

(Interesting that also Mepis has mountains or pyramids)

> running thru it (if you look at it in that perspective).

lol

Yes its vauge. It a connection with the name and thats it basically.

> Absolutley, I dont think anybody want to change the name ( I love it).

Good :)

> dont change logo colors, its a no go in CI.

Ok. Lets try avoid to many different colors.

-nc

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From: Natanael Copa <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 15:27:50 +0200

On Fri, 09 May 2014 15:10:46 +0200

> containing the logo is printed in black and white on paper.

I agree on this.

> "Security" is a good seller, nowadays. ;-)

I was thinking of a bolt, which lead to the thought of "engineering" or
simlar. (a honeycomb is constructed by hexagons and is a brilliant
piece of engineering too)

But its mostly just a shape and Tobias said that a cricle is
"boring".

So basically, hexagon does not really need to mean anything. Its just a
shape.

> concept, that does not exist in reality.

Right, so the slove should be 45 degree or less?

The idea was to have mountains/alps and an "A" as in Alpine at the same
time.
 
> Keep Up the Good Work, Tiger

Thanks for you feedback

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From: Der Tiger <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 18:03:08 +0200

Hi Natanael,

> So basically, hexagon does not really need to mean anything. Its just a
I see. I gave it some thought, but didn't come up with a better idea. A
cog wheel is too close to a "boring" circle.

I think, the hexagon goes quite well with the mountains inside.

> Right, so the slove should be 45 degree or less?
As a reference, I've uploaded some photos taken from Central European
Alps to the bug {1}.

> The idea was to have mountains/alps and an "A" as in Alpine at the same
The small dash in the left mountain of the logo is perfectly enough to
accomplish that.

So Long, Tiger

{1} http://bugs.alpinelinux.org/issues/2882

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