From nobody Fri Mar 29 04:48:26 2024 X-Original-To: alpine-devel@lists.alpinelinux.org Received: from mail.shiz.me (immunity.shiz.me [62.210.12.63]) by lists.alpinelinux.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB2E75C4D42 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 03:43:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ion.lan (5070ACDF.static.ziggozakelijk.nl [80.112.172.223]) by mail.shiz.me (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 80edbb75 (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256:NO); Tue, 5 Dec 2017 03:43:35 +0000 (UTC) From: Shiz Message-Id: <5728B3BC-F0EA-4430-942F-54F2512564C3@shiz.me> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6015E9FC-31DF-4026-A5FE-0A7F60FBAA4B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 X-Mailinglist: alpine-devel Precedence: list List-Id: Alpine Development List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Subject: Re: [alpine-devel] Alpine features and the future Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 04:43:35 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20171205000347.GA26330@homura> Cc: =?utf-8?Q?C=C3=A1g?= , alpine-devel@lists.alpinelinux.org To: Drew DeVault References: <663B8B1D-79B7-42AE-8B25-A76E821FA54D@shiz.me> <20171205000347.GA26330@homura> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) --Apple-Mail=_6015E9FC-31DF-4026-A5FE-0A7F60FBAA4B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >> Definitely agree with this. I am also of the opinion that `useradd` = and >> friends seem more commonly used, and it=E2=80=99s a shame to have to = recommend >> using the shadow package for everyone that wants to either use it >> themselves or have tooling using it. >=20 > Sweet. I didn't realize it was already packaged. I think adduser et al > should be removed from the busybox distribution and shadow added to = the > default installation. I have to highly disagree there, as the shadow package pulls in PAM. ;-) I=E2=80=99m very much for a Busybox-based implementation of those utils, = though. - Shiz --Apple-Mail=_6015E9FC-31DF-4026-A5FE-0A7F60FBAA4B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEbjMcEnnu9dmDojP4R81Z1pCQkJAFAlomFecACgkQR81Z1pCQ kJDXLQ/+I9F5wtHfVgir79+/oCCtLLNNPX9TmY1ChpxVfLCzsMuXcMLp0Yhn65ua LLJLVQ8+l5f2gdo9iLWht4j2DAQo5iZ265kTZb8najy8DGeanhtqmNECqISW22Y1 wiSuSOAybwkrvio2w8Uijm4RYfgiesu0mBnJf7uraXM5IlcLj82rLuNV2IVgs5Fg qrGHVx+Zh5f1SANkIzpVicnR40YTmt0x4xTR3hPNFzLUmWkfhU685nIFC88VUipJ eDQH6HvaIIRCiX2FkoJs8k+odzA9bSyZ/OQa5LVjERQ183lah0T8A9DBDdsxk7Xx lTQQ+a0eRtUblXDGk0KPovNbOJHxsZ/kWzPyOBFwaV7Ewd9O0Y7kkX7hI6cFYx1v 4S7z+LcAHW8zHK2reFY7sLy0FY1oT0/hzIq6WpQmKHGuYM6mEygL48OrQpOmpV4Y pjq/1+/3u64bY3TO0ER/WMMFwlQ7I+P2ky12ZV0qQdc2jZHPBtQPPNXI7oFIcvCk M0rAFq7jlQ+vjA1uYodJur7ogpXCw7SY/FUvyCDTJ92SBSoyUlxCmLnsA9XPxN2P 6Iod1FxUXkqsLoJ5xDItsXFBLxgjwtZUIXVf/MoMimQS3zs6OzjIAZaZCnf+tANA SGt16coZrFoSlnOgqWKnOe08Bwyf37vD4bcXXZCLdbjzI/wnR10= =zs34 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_6015E9FC-31DF-4026-A5FE-0A7F60FBAA4B-- --- Unsubscribe: alpine-devel+unsubscribe@lists.alpinelinux.org Help: alpine-devel+help@lists.alpinelinux.org --- From nobody Fri Mar 29 04:48:26 2024 X-Original-To: alpine-devel@lists.alpinelinux.org Received: from mail.cmpwn.com (mail.cmpwn.com [45.56.77.53]) by lists.alpinelinux.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B1B15C4D5D for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 22:03:30 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=cmpwn.com; s=cmpwn; t=1512511453; bh=0RfgCGe2PrZH4z9lUS69b8ec7/NEEbwSwo33g/i2FuE=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=mT7XIisgmRnmfg1SLzn+gnpX0C91la7m+R8yLDznozRmVdWLkSpZ81hTuEavJactW vc3cl06jU45QfXZ6FJ4WkRwIkuj8adEHAGvj90oOJzVA3C8iNNo7XcYhZyxeJQYFk4 nGEiLsgdI0baMXR4VuF0IldvyM9mY5BwXkYGhzOo= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 17:03:28 -0500 From: Drew DeVault To: Shiz Cc: =?iso-8859-1?B?Q+Fn?= , alpine-devel@lists.alpinelinux.org Subject: Re: [alpine-devel] Alpine features and the future Message-ID: <20171205220328.GA22370@miku> References: <663B8B1D-79B7-42AE-8B25-A76E821FA54D@shiz.me> <20171205000347.GA26330@homura> <5728B3BC-F0EA-4430-942F-54F2512564C3@shiz.me> X-Mailinglist: alpine-devel Precedence: list List-Id: Alpine Development List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5728B3BC-F0EA-4430-942F-54F2512564C3@shiz.me> X-GNU: Terry Pratchett I spent some time reading about and playing with s6. Overall, I like it, but it's not perfect. My main complaints are: - execline is stupid - s6-rc is not very good - anopa is not very good - s6 is too complicated in places, things like "actually down" with daemon-level support are inelegant and bad With all of that in mind, I still like it and I'd like to plan build a simple service manager around s6 and see how it goes. My plan is to work on another Alpine ISO remix based on some of my ideas and see how well-received it is. It'll look like this: - s6 plus a new service manager - slimmer busybox (stripped down to just POSIX tools) - ubase - shadow (without PAM) - slim static vim build - dash I'll update the ML as I make progress. -- Drew DeVault --- Unsubscribe: alpine-devel+unsubscribe@lists.alpinelinux.org Help: alpine-devel+help@lists.alpinelinux.org --- From nobody Fri Mar 29 04:48:26 2024 X-Original-To: alpine-devel@lists.alpinelinux.org Received: from smtp1.tech.numericable.fr (smtp1.tech.numericable.fr [82.216.111.37]) by lists.alpinelinux.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABD7A5C5762 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 12:09:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from skarnet.org (ip-182.net-82-216-21.versailles2.rev.numericable.fr [82.216.21.182]) by smtp1.tech.numericable.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 8120D1471E9 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 13:09:15 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 25822 invoked from network); 5 Dec 2017 23:32:59 -0000 Received: from elzian.internal.skarnet.org. (HELO ?192.168.0.2?) (192.168.0.2) by sinay.internal.skarnet.org. with SMTP; 5 Dec 2017 23:32:59 -0000 From: "Laurent Bercot" To: "alpine-devel@lists.alpinelinux.org" Subject: Re: [alpine-devel] Alpine features and the future Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 23:32:32 +0000 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20171205220328.GA22370@miku> References: <663B8B1D-79B7-42AE-8B25-A76E821FA54D@shiz.me> <20171205000347.GA26330@homura> <5728B3BC-F0EA-4430-942F-54F2512564C3@shiz.me> <20171205220328.GA22370@miku> Reply-To: "Laurent Bercot" User-Agent: eM_Client/7.1.30794.0 X-Mailinglist: alpine-devel Precedence: list List-Id: Alpine Development List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-VR-SPAMSTATE: OK X-VR-SPAMSCORE: 0 X-VR-SPAMCAUSE: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedtuddrudeigdefhecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfpfgfogfftkfevteeunffgpdfqfgfvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhephffvufffkfgjfhhrfgggtgfgsehtqhertddtreejnecuhfhrohhmpedfnfgruhhrvghnthcuuegvrhgtohhtfdcuoehskhgrqdguvghvvghlsehskhgrrhhnvghtrdhorhhgqeenucffohhmrghinhepshhkrghrnhgvthdrohhrghenucfrrghrrghmpehmohguvgepshhmthhpohhuthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt >- execline is stupid You don't have to use it if you don't like it. It's used internally by s6, but it can remain out of your sight at all times. >- s6-rc is not very good >- anopa is not very good >- s6 is too complicated in places, things like "actually down" with > daemon-level support are inelegant and bad If you have constructive criticism, we'd welcome your input on the supervision at list.skarnet.org mailing-list, or the #s6 channel on Freenode (where anopa's author also lurks). I'm especially interested in what you find "not very good" with s6-rc, and how you think it could improve. Aside from a friendlier UI, which is something that a lot of people, including Alpine core devs, have requested, and that is on the roadmap. -- Laurent --- Unsubscribe: alpine-devel+unsubscribe@lists.alpinelinux.org Help: alpine-devel+help@lists.alpinelinux.org --- From nobody Fri Mar 29 04:48:26 2024 X-Original-To: alpine-devel@lists.alpinelinux.org Received: from mail.cmpwn.com (mail.cmpwn.com [45.56.77.53]) by lists.alpinelinux.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16A3B5C4D55 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 14:36:37 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=cmpwn.com; s=cmpwn; t=1512571041; bh=4/GEcV/V9O85aPPMa9U4lBO4P1jB54550tsTQAb7quY=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=lPhv3suuXBvgubEs+gv3HmwtV3eAyS1dFTLuYeBdAKu3luKP/NCpUFpP+CUfftMtN 5Wxr/quziVmDYl3wo3CUHUphBebFRonOFLjmPr/od0UB3i9kD9ZwOGU9DuHqi8kL+i DyDQ/8ZQi/+fUJTJSHGg84+cey7yC+3ilwOVNpTg= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 09:36:34 -0500 From: Drew DeVault To: Laurent Bercot Cc: alpine-devel@lists.alpinelinux.org Subject: Re: [alpine-devel] Alpine features and the future Message-ID: <20171206143634.GA2051@homura> References: <663B8B1D-79B7-42AE-8B25-A76E821FA54D@shiz.me> <20171205000347.GA26330@homura> <5728B3BC-F0EA-4430-942F-54F2512564C3@shiz.me> <20171205220328.GA22370@miku> X-Mailinglist: alpine-devel Precedence: list List-Id: Alpine Development List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-GNU: Terry Pratchett On 2017-12-05 11:32 PM, Laurent Bercot wrote: > > - execline is stupid > > You don't have to use it if you don't like it. It's used internally > by s6, but it can remain out of your sight at all times. That's not how it works. Having it on my system at all bothers me and it speaks poorly of the design of s6 that it's required. I can choose not to use it but it still factors into my evalulation of s6. > > - s6-rc is not very good > > - anopa is not very good > > - s6 is too complicated in places, things like "actually down" with > > daemon-level support are inelegant and bad > > If you have constructive criticism, we'd welcome your input on the > supervision at list.skarnet.org mailing-list, or the #s6 channel on > Freenode (where anopa's author also lurks). Great, I will send some feedback. I joined #s6 yesterday as well. Do note, though, that I didn't say "bad" - I said "not very good". "Good" is not a term I have ever applied to an init, so don't think too much of it. > I'm especially interested in what you find "not very good" with > s6-rc, and how you think it could improve. Aside from a friendlier UI, > which is something that a lot of people, including Alpine core devs, > have requested, and that is on the roadmap. Part of the reason I did not elaborate is that my concerns are pretty deep and I felt they'd be unlikely to be addressed without causing issues with backwards compatability. That being said, I simply find s6-rc too complicated. The database abstraction is not necessary and the handling of one-shots is not great (but this is more of a problem with s6 than s6-rc). There are a lot of places like this in s6{,-rc} where lots of complexity is piled on to solve problems of dubious legitimacy. I would also comment on the documentation. The website buries the lede by putting several pages worth of rationale, comparisons to other inits, and design docs upfront. Those should probably come at the end, after a brief summary that gets you to grok the init's ideas and a command reference. Also, there are no man pages, which is a problem that bugs me for Alpine's apk as well. Like I said in my first email, overall I do like s6 and I intend to start working on a system based on it. Don't interpret my acknowledgement of the drawbacks as a disdain for the software as a whole. -- Drew DeVault --- Unsubscribe: alpine-devel+unsubscribe@lists.alpinelinux.org Help: alpine-devel+help@lists.alpinelinux.org --- From nobody Fri Mar 29 04:48:26 2024 X-Original-To: alpine-devel@lists.alpinelinux.org Received: from mail.wilcox-tech.com (mail.wilcox-tech.com [45.32.83.9]) by lists.alpinelinux.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E8255C4D4F for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 21:40:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: (qmail 30229 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2017 21:40:36 -0000 Received: from 107-131-85-28.lightspeed.tulsok.sbcglobal.net (HELO ?192.168.1.78?) (awilcox@wilcox-tech.com@107.131.85.28) by mail.wilcox-tech.com with ESMTPA; 6 Dec 2017 21:40:36 -0000 Subject: Re: [alpine-devel] Alpine features and the future To: alpine-devel@lists.alpinelinux.org References: <663B8B1D-79B7-42AE-8B25-A76E821FA54D@shiz.me> <20171205000347.GA26330@homura> <5728B3BC-F0EA-4430-942F-54F2512564C3@shiz.me> <20171205220328.GA22370@miku> <20171206143634.GA2051@homura> From: "A. Wilcox" Organization: =?UTF-8?Q?Ad=c3=a9lie_Linux?= Message-ID: <5A2863D1.4040205@adelielinux.org> Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 15:40:33 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.0 X-Mailinglist: alpine-devel Precedence: list List-Id: Alpine Development List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20171206143634.GA2051@homura> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 06/12/17 08:36, Drew DeVault wrote: > Also, there are no man pages, which is a problem that bugs me for > Alpine's apk as well. https://code.foxkit.us/adelie/abuild/blob/master/newapkbuild.1 getting closer every day... - --=20 A. Wilcox (awilfox) Project Lead, Ad=E9lie Linux http://adelielinux.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJaKGPOAAoJEMspy1GSK50UYGAP/3mDXQ+8UlHa/H5GEJJxFFvG PkM49Zla9OvWVquqsowxcyv2EAVnn6sikMECXvu+KLCcsfZox+igd08jmvOZM7xC ocNB2LTplWmedyr0/6MAhvh1g2ihL34/Pkqea/wBYpdLRn/hRgeOf6VvhTIQVvN+ S2UYgV7pc5267eKKVN2tLHyOnkZDDXBCIhonF9cyikxSsjT2sV19EcdOnbcQnNqb Dv6to0gX07Kv2JMa4D3UVhg8Gc8IY64zTF4BqkXMJyPvAOwKWFERW3aGgBII/O8/ b1/N8GS8ruLqQ+4YRSe+XevuVmNwrndLncloMQoZHtNHqs4PRejfK0ezvw4R4vIX 1Lq2WqQBYgW7WLtUgLo35InOzhiXaEoiWS/VNvoR+8aO9/Wq0PHvwHh0z/dVIQWk FyI8Ix+NicKKgtONw9C8Ao5oa+uX5+AK51d2HMcUGscupQEEILVUhSNX3M7SGbHZ 7PoObu14kjOGkKmhQllDlLyYMY08xpsOmXcwUBuXdGHB5yJdrvSO49pfm+urnTB/ LS9CSaZQLh/FwEqeiJcs9McIr3vN7sN7NTw3V26Io92E6LrrMdNgz80fuCPs/eAF x6WzL8l0+VzqP8hxSwOPhDWYbt1hZHryKSq76c+P/6cY5u24IBY1bqW3DO9kjzXz 6fk5TOvnfJY+sYhp8A8W =3Dtn/7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --- Unsubscribe: alpine-devel+unsubscribe@lists.alpinelinux.org Help: alpine-devel+help@lists.alpinelinux.org ---