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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 09:22:30 +0000
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From: "Ariadne Conill" <ariadne@dereferenced.org>
Message-ID: <d2dc387e0516ef625621f8a063a74b3f@dereferenced.org>
Subject: Re: mailing lists, processes, modernization
To: "David Demelier" <markand@malikania.fr>,
 ~alpine/devel@lists.alpinelinux.org
In-Reply-To: <20200419090413.GA4104@kiwi.home>
References: <20200419090413.GA4104@kiwi.home>
 <66694f73048e047cadbe9e3f715801d8@dereferenced.org>

Hello,=0A=0AOn April 19, 2020 9:04 AM, "David Demelier" <markand@malikani=
a.fr> wrote:=0A=0A> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 03:48:25AM +0000, Ariadne Con=
ill wrote:=0A> =0A>> This lead to Drew DeVault proposing that Alpine use =
his Sourcehut platform=0A>> for mailing lists, which we have used for the=
 past 8 months. Initially,=0A>> this was seen as a good solution for the =
original problems we were having=0A>> with the ezmlm-based setup, but som=
e have discontinued using the mailing=0A>> lists, in some cases leaving t=
he project entirely due to issues the=0A>> Sourcehut software has process=
ing HTML e-mail, which caused incompatibility=0A>> with popular e-mail cl=
ients such as the Android GMail client and the iOS=0A>> EMail client, as =
well as differences in behavior verses the earlier mailing=0A>> list syst=
em involving the Sourcehut solution not mailing a copy of the=0A>> messag=
e back to its author.=0A> =0A> I personally use mlmmj [0], it's pretty mi=
nimalist and simple to use.=0A> Could be nice to use to replace this one =
at least for other lists. And=0A> at least it does one basic thing for a =
mailing list, send your own email=0A> back.=0A=0Amlmmj is a non-starter f=
or us.  The whole reason why we wound up on=0ASourcehut's implementation =
to begin with is because the infra team no=0Alonger wished to maintain ml=
mmj due to security concerns.=0A=0A>> Unfortunately, this brings us to a =
crossroads: mailing lists that are=0A>> boycotted by participants are not=
 a useful communications tool for a=0A>> project, because of the source o=
f truth issue. In addition, the infra=0A>> team has expressed a desire to=
 migrate all applications they manage to=0A>> run under Docker, a desire =
not shared by Drew for the Sourcehut=0A>> infrastructure.=0A> =0A> I thin=
k it's useful to discuss new problematics but not for sending=0A> patches=
. For example, proposals, help for development and such.=0A=0AAny mechani=
sm, including GitLab issues, can be used to track proposals,=0Alikely wit=
h more efficiency than e-mail.  The proposal does not involve=0Ausing Dis=
course for development discussions, that would be replaced by=0AGitLab is=
sues.  Discourse would be primarily used for user-facing=0Asupport.=0A=0A=
Many other distributions and projects have begun to use issue tracking=0A=
in this way.  It is certainly not novel to this proposal.=0A=0A>> For the=
 support inquiries that get sent to alpine-devel and alpine-user,=0A>> I =
propose that we use Discourse forums instead. Discourse is more accessibl=
e=0A>> to the average user, featuring mobile apps and tons of features. D=
iscourse=0A>> also supports e-mail for people who still desire to interac=
t with the system=0A>> using e-mail, but the support is limited to replyi=
ng and creating new threads.=0A>> This is believed to be adequate for die=
-hard e-mail users, however.=0A> =0A> Here I strongly suggest to not use =
discourse. It's very painful to use=0A> and its interface is not intuitiv=
e. It has a mailing-list mode but it=0A> still hard to use and not very h=
andy.=0A=0AThe alternative would be to use a traditional forum package.  =
Users=0Aare not using the Alpine lists for support, instead using third-p=
arty=0Asolutions like StackExchange, because users do not wish to interac=
t=0Awith mailing lists to have their question solved.  Discourse is=0Apar=
ticularly attractive here *because* it can support the Q&A format=0Athat =
users have become accustomed to for support.  That it also=0Asupports a m=
ailing list mode is a nice feature, but ultimately not=0Athe primary reas=
on for the suggestion.=0A=0AAriadne