Hey, I wrote some words down about some things that I believe are important for Alpine. 

https://nulo.in/Experiencing%20harmful%20behavior%20in%20Alpine.html

o/

This is not the first time mps has been out of line. His behavior has
been frequently been disruptive and abusive towards other contributors
and has created an unwelcome environment for participants.

To quote the code of conduct:

> Our goal is to maintain a safe, helpful and friendly Alpine community
> for everyone

mps's behavior in this and prior examples is neither helpful nor
friendly. There are no consequences for his behavior so there is no
reason for him to stop doing it. Many people have left Alpine because
Alpine never deals with abusive behavior.

I call on the TSC to formally evaluate mps's behavior under the code of
conduct, to release a statement explaining their findings, and to take
punitive action if deemed appropriate.

Nulo,

I've heard about it the first time on your URL and I think it is correct
behaviour to escalate if a conflict is not being resolved.

However, I have to add that a public posting outside of this
mailinglist is probably not going to calm down the situation.

I can offer both you as well as mps the role of a mediator. Not in any
kind of official Alpine role, but as to resolve a conflict that is
related to work around Alpine.

I am reachable as 'telmich' in most IRC networks and @nico:ungleich.ch
on Matrix in case either or both of you want to try mediating.

Cheers,

Nico

Nulo <catdevnull@riseup.net> writes:

> Hey, I wrote some words down about some things that I believe are important for Alpine.
>
> https://nulo.in/Experiencing%20harmful%20behavior%20in%20Alpine.html
>
> o/


--
Sustainable and modern Infrastructures by ungleich.ch

On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 07:46:45PM +0100, Nico Schottelius wrote:
> I've heard about it the first time on your URL and I think it is correct
> behaviour to escalate if a conflict is not being resolved.
> 
> However, I have to add that a public posting outside of this
> mailinglist is probably not going to calm down the situation.

I already tried to solve this on the IRC room many times and failed to
do so; besides, I believe that having a publicly available archive of
these kinds of things is important. I only posted this link publicly to
this mailing list, and even then, it is public mailing list with public
linkable archives.

> I can offer both you as well as mps the role of a mediator. Not in any
> kind of official Alpine role, but as to resolve a conflict that is
> related to work around Alpine.

Thank you for the offer! However, as I said in the post, I already
tried coming to an agreement with Ariadne as a mediator and failed to
do so.

> Cheers,
> 
> Nico

Cheers! o/

Hello,

On Thu, 20 Jan 2022, Drew DeVault wrote:

> This is not the first time mps has been out of line. His behavior has
> been frequently been disruptive and abusive towards other contributors
> and has created an unwelcome environment for participants.
>
> To quote the code of conduct:
>
>> Our goal is to maintain a safe, helpful and friendly Alpine community
>> for everyone
>
> mps's behavior in this and prior examples is neither helpful nor
> friendly. There are no consequences for his behavior so there is no
> reason for him to stop doing it. Many people have left Alpine because
> Alpine never deals with abusive behavior.

While I agree that Alpine has been sloppy with this, it *has* improved 
markedly from where it was a few years ago.  But there is always room for 
improvement, of course.  And being a good team player is just as important 
as technical excellence, so mps should not get a pass on that just because 
he is good at his work.

> I call on the TSC to formally evaluate mps's behavior under the code of
> conduct, to release a statement explaining their findings, and to take
> punitive action if deemed appropriate.

Unfortunately, the TSC does not have the authority to enforce the Code of 
Conduct, this is retained by the Alpine Council, for good reason.  When 
developing the new governance structure, it was our intent that there be 
an ability to validate that TSC members are also following the Code of 
Conduct, which requires a separate team without conflicts of interest.

I have suggested that the Alpine Council create a Code of Conduct team to 
deal with these matters independently, but am not sure of the current 
status.

In regards to what the TSC *could* investigate, is whether or not the NMUs 
in question were technically warranted.  As mps asserted that he would 
stop doing NMUs against Nulo's packages, I am not sure if there is still 
an open question for the TSC (the technical aspect of the issue is 
resolved unless another NMU occurs), or what the TSC can offer as a fix, 
other than reverting the NMUs that mps performed; I already offered that 
as a possible solution from the TSC side of things, but Nulo expressed 
their preference to pursue this as a CoC issue instead.

But, admittedly, I am not happy with this either, both because Nulo's 
concern has not been addressed by our current workflows, and because there 
is no actual way to request a CoC inquiry.  Both of these things should be 
addressed.

Ariadne

Hi,

On Thu, 20 Jan 2022, Nulo wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 07:46:45PM +0100, Nico Schottelius wrote:
>> I've heard about it the first time on your URL and I think it is correct
>> behaviour to escalate if a conflict is not being resolved.
>>
>> However, I have to add that a public posting outside of this
>> mailinglist is probably not going to calm down the situation.
>
> I already tried to solve this on the IRC room many times and failed to
> do so; besides, I believe that having a publicly available archive of
> these kinds of things is important. I only posted this link publicly to
> this mailing list, and even then, it is public mailing list with public
> linkable archives.

I think the appropriate thing to do would have been to escalate to the 
Alpine Council, per the governance structure of the project.

For future reference, issues can be raised with the Council on the 
Council's issue tracker:

https://gitlab.alpinelinux.org/alpine/council/-/issues/new

>
>> I can offer both you as well as mps the role of a mediator. Not in any
>> kind of official Alpine role, but as to resolve a conflict that is
>> related to work around Alpine.
>
> Thank you for the offer! However, as I said in the post, I already
> tried coming to an agreement with Ariadne as a mediator and failed to
> do so.

The Council has already opened a work item to do a CoC inquiry against 
mps:

https://gitlab.alpinelinux.org/alpine/council/-/issues/11

I think it would be better to take this conversation to that ticket, 
so that everything is documented in one place, rather than have it on the 
Alpine lists.

Ariadne

On Thu Jan 20, 2022 at 10:07 PM CET, Ariadne Conill wrote:
> Unfortunately, the TSC does not have the authority to enforce the Code of 
> Conduct, this is retained by the Alpine Council, for good reason.  When 
> developing the new governance structure, it was our intent that there be 
> an ability to validate that TSC members are also following the Code of 
> Conduct, which requires a separate team without conflicts of interest.

I was not aware that the council existed until now, and indeed it seems
like a more appropriate venue.

I'm also going to ask that the following tickets are prioritized:

https://gitlab.alpinelinux.org/alpine/council/-/issues/3
https://gitlab.alpinelinux.org/alpine/council/-/issues/8
https://gitlab.alpinelinux.org/alpine/council/-/issues/9

There is not really sufficient communication around what's going on with
Alpine governance as of late.

> But, admittedly, I am not happy with this either, both because Nulo's 
> concern has not been addressed by our current workflows, and because there 
> is no actual way to request a CoC inquiry.  Both of these things should be 
> addressed.

Can you open another ticket for the Council to amend the CoC to define
the redress procedures?

Hi,

On Thu, 20 Jan 2022, Drew DeVault wrote:

> On Thu Jan 20, 2022 at 10:07 PM CET, Ariadne Conill wrote:
>> Unfortunately, the TSC does not have the authority to enforce the Code of
>> Conduct, this is retained by the Alpine Council, for good reason.  When
>> developing the new governance structure, it was our intent that there be
>> an ability to validate that TSC members are also following the Code of
>> Conduct, which requires a separate team without conflicts of interest.
>
> I was not aware that the council existed until now, and indeed it seems
> like a more appropriate venue.

The new governance structure was launched at AlpineConf 2021, but 
admittedly there has not been much of an announcement since then.  I think 
this is because the Council has been busy dealing with more urgent 
governance issues and wanted to wait on an announcement until everything 
was polished.

> I'm also going to ask that the following tickets are prioritized:
> https://gitlab.alpinelinux.org/alpine/council/-/issues/3
> https://gitlab.alpinelinux.org/alpine/council/-/issues/8
> https://gitlab.alpinelinux.org/alpine/council/-/issues/9
>
> There is not really sufficient communication around what's going on with
> Alpine governance as of late.
>
>> But, admittedly, I am not happy with this either, both because Nulo's
>> concern has not been addressed by our current workflows, and because there
>> is no actual way to request a CoC inquiry.  Both of these things should be
>> addressed.
>
> Can you open another ticket for the Council to amend the CoC to define
> the redress procedures?

This seems reasonable.  I have opened a work item to update the CoC, 
including redress procedures:

https://gitlab.alpinelinux.org/alpine/council/-/issues/12

Ariadne

Ariadne Conill <ariadne@dereferenced.org> writes:
> [ ... ]
> For future reference, issues can be raised with the Council on the
> Council's issue tracker:
>
> https://gitlab.alpinelinux.org/alpine/council/-/issues/new

Everyone who knows me knows I'm all for transparency, but if it was me
trying to reach out to the CoC for reporting misconduct / misbehaviour,
I would not feel properly protected.

I suggest to have an email address of the CoC to reach out
instead. Whether or not that is backed by some encrypted archive or is
automatically deleted after resolultion is a different matter to be
discussed.

Cheers,

Nico


--
Sustainable and modern Infrastructures by ungleich.ch

Hi,

On Thu, 20 Jan 2022, Nico Schottelius wrote:

> Ariadne Conill <ariadne@dereferenced.org> writes:
>> [ ... ]
>> For future reference, issues can be raised with the Council on the
>> Council's issue tracker:
>>
>> https://gitlab.alpinelinux.org/alpine/council/-/issues/new
>
> Everyone who knows me knows I'm all for transparency, but if it was me
> trying to reach out to the CoC for reporting misconduct / misbehaviour,
> I would not feel properly protected.
>
> I suggest to have an email address of the CoC to reach out
> instead. Whether or not that is backed by some encrypted archive or is
> automatically deleted after resolultion is a different matter to be
> discussed.

Gitlab allows opening "private" bugs.  It is intended that users would 
open CoC inquiry requests as private bugs, and the Council (or a future 
CoC team) would declassify them when a decision is made.

Ariadne

Ariadne Conill <ariadne@dereferenced.org> writes:
> Gitlab allows opening "private" bugs.

Is there a day one does not learn something new?

Thanks a lot for the pointer, much appreciated.

With that my previous comment should be seen obsolete.

Best,

Nico


--
Sustainable and modern Infrastructures by ungleich.ch

Hi,

On Thu, 20 Jan 2022, Nico Schottelius wrote:

>
> Ariadne Conill <ariadne@dereferenced.org> writes:
>> Gitlab allows opening "private" bugs.
>
> Is there a day one does not learn something new?
>
> Thanks a lot for the pointer, much appreciated.

Gitlab refers to them as "sensitive issues."  In this case, because the 
complaint was originally posted on alpine-devel list, it is a public 
issue.

I am aware of this feature primarily because the security team makes heavy 
use of them.

Ariadne

On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 03:06:17PM -0300, Nulo wrote:
> Hey, I wrote some words down about some things that I believe are important for Alpine. 
> 
> https://nulo.in/Experiencing%20harmful%20behavior%20in%20Alpine.html
> 
> o/

Hello Nulo,

We're sorry it got this far. The Alpine Linux council is looking into
the matter and are talking with MPS as well.

Furthermore, we'll be looking into improving how we deal with these
situations in the future.

Kevin